Black lives matter
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Black Lives Matter in Health Libraries
I'm going to allow um Natasha and Hong-Anh to introduce themselves um so that they can tell us about the work
that they do and
why they're involved in this um
conversation
okay um would you like me to go first
holly
please do it yeah okay so hI everyone so
I’m Natasha Howard
I’m library and knowledge services
manager at NELFT north east london
electric foundation trust
um now I know many of you don't know me
um some of you are dialing in so you
can't see me
I’m not black I’m mixed race or biracial
so I’m roughly half
black Afro Caribbean and half white
english
my mum was born in Jamaica and in the
70s the government paid for her to come
over here to change to be a nurse
she did her training in Bath and then
she went to Essex and did whisper training
and that's where she met my dad so I’ve
always thought of myself as being half
Essex half Jamaican
I’m descended from enslaved people and
to their enslavers
but I’m not a spokesperson for black
people that monolithic group that seems
to exist in
your imagination I want to be upfront
about this because
we all need to be able to acknowledge
the privileges that we have
and um I need to acknowledge the
privilege the advantage that comes from
having
this lighter skin what some people call
proximity to whiteness
and it doesn't end there my other great
privileges include a comfortable
upbringing
and fantastic education and we still
have grammar schools in Essex and i
passed my 11 plus I went to grammar
school
and then I went to King's College London
now partly because of where I grew up
and partly because I’m fortunate to have
a wonderful extended uh family who are
very loving I’ve never experienced the
kind of overt
violent um aggressive racism that many
people would think of as being proper
racist
I’ve always known I was a target as a
child my dad told me to be careful when
we were in shops
keep my hands visible because people
would think I was going to shoplift
because I’m brown
even now if I go into a shop I always
get a basket if I can't get a basket i
walk around like this
like I’m waiting on tables in my hands
and I just don't even think about
it when I was six my mom told me i'd
have to work twice as hard as everyone
else to get anywhere
because of the colour of my skin at the
time I really wasn't that bothered
because I knew I was a hard worker
and I was very bright so I just got on
with it
and for a long time I naively believed
that we lived in a meritocracy and that
part of hard work would pay off
that our society was post-racial
perhaps there was some pockets of
ignorance
that they are very isolated life started
to change when my son was born six years
ago
he was two weeks early and we were kept
on the postnatal ward so he could have
iv antibiotics twice a day
after we've been there for a few days i
knew something wasn't right and I kept
asking the right to midwives if he was
okay
they said he was fine his nappies were
weird and
they said they were normal it was only
when it came to a weekend night shift
and an Indian nurse was starting the
neonatal unit and doing his iv
antibiotics and she said to me
your baby's a little bit jaundiced I’ve
taken a sample to check
and a few hours later everything kicked
off because the results showed that his
he was really really jaundiced really
dehydrated in a bad way
but he was whisked off to the neonatal
unit and it was nearly two weeks before
I could take him home
I was six years ago and he's fine now
but that's just one example of how
racism and health care affected outcomes
the concerns of this very articulate
educated women were repeatedly ignored
and the white staff didn't know how to
support children for non-white babies
I guess I started to wake up to reality
I started doing more reading so i
realized that I had this duty to
leverage my privilege to facilitate
change
but I have engaged with my trust's
long-standing ethnic minority network
and I’m now a interview colour rep for
the network and also strategic
ambassador
like we know librarianship is white
until our profession reflects the
communities we serve we're not going to
be equipped to meet their needs
it's going to take a while to change
those figures but I think in the
meantime we all have a duty to
participate ourselves on EDI
issues in the broadest sense and how
they manifest in our work
and then we can start to act so thanks
for taking the time to engage with us on
this
thanks Natasha um Hong-Anh
are you there hold on
she seems to have disappeared
oh there you are ah sorry
um I’m Hong-Anh Nguyen I am the library
service manager at the kings fund
so um I guess I work in a health library
but
probably not in uh the kind of way that
most people think about health libraries
because
our collection is focused on health
and social care policy and management
and so um like Natasha said and so eloquently said
um I think one of the things that is
really important for
me to clock in my introduction is that
um
this session is about black lives
matter and
as you can see I’m not black I am i
would identify as a woman of colour
person of colour BAME all of those are
like words that I might use to describe
myself just depending on
the context or southeast Asian or
Vietnamese
um and the
kind of experiences of
discrimination or othering that I
experienced
are very different to the experiences
of um Black or Asian
or other ethnic minority people um
I think it's just really important to
kind of highlight
that because um I think what black lives
matter is really highlighted is that
BAME isn't like a monolith
it's an umbrella term that kind of
covers a lot of experiences
and for me how that showed up in my life
is that um
the southeast Asian community tends to
be kind of part of what
we call in this country like the model
model minority
um you might have also heard it referred
to as like the good immigrant
um as there is this kind of ex
it kind of shows up as like an
expectation that uh
you're going to kind of be very perform
really
well academically that you will go into
certain
professions so like being a doctor or
being a pharmacist
or being a lawyer um
and I think it's it's about uh
kind of putting that identity in a box
and making expectations
of how they perform but when
Black Lives Matter um when it kind of
came to the attention of the world again
over the past few weeks one of the
things that really
that I really kind of thought that was
um
the way that model minorities are used
um
as a tool of white supremacy like as a
way
to kind of um
yes as a way to kind of oppress like
other
minority groups um so
again there is like layers of privilege
there that we have to think about
um I guess the other thing I want to say
is that my experience
of talking and thinking and doing stuff
around
equality diversity and inclusion it's
it's informed by my lived experience but
it's really garnered from my
professional experience so I’m involved
in a lot of
the king's funds uh diversity inclusion
program
and so I co-lead on a lot of the work
that we do
and I’m involved in lots of the
initiatives so I’m part of the reverse
mentoring program
and uh I we introduced um
a a positive action graduate trainee
post
for example so yes so um
I guess I guess my disclaimer as it were
would be that
um and I’m sure Natasha would agree with
this is
that while we have experience in this
field uh we don't have all the answers
um there is no silver bullet for solving
the issues that we're going to be
talking about because if there were
we wouldn't be having this discussion
today so I think it's more to say that
we're just sharing our experiences of
how
our journey has been so far in working
in this area
thank you that's great so um
what we've done is we've taken the
questions that you all are
on slido and we've sort of grouped them
together thematically because there were
quite a lot
of questions that um went together
nicely so I’m going to ask Natasha and
Hong-Anh
these questions and then they're going
to have a discussion and during that
discussion if you want to make any
further questions or comments please use
the chat function
so let's kick off with our first
question how can library staff
regardless of level or role
affect positive change and influence
upwards where resistance is being met
tricky isn't it, this is a really good
question
and I’m sure one that both of us really
relate to in our experience so far
um I guess so I I guess
resistance is often felt
um downwards but resistance can be found
in like
all directions within an organization so
it can be felt from your peers
it can be felt from your managers from
directors senior managers um
so what I always think is that everyone
is responsible for something right you
you all have a job description you're
all responsible for
delivering an element or aspect of your
service making certain decisions about
your service
that is power um so you have the power
to make decisions
that ultimately add up into
change um if everyone kind of thinks
about their power consciously so
if if you're a cataloguer for example
you might have the ability to kind of
lead a discussion and lead a piece of
thinking about
do the class do the indexing terms we
use reflect
really um the languages used nowadays
um around gender identity
around race um
you know that's that's one thing that
you can do you can't do everything
but the things that you can do are
change
um so that would be my first thought on
this
Natasha what do you think
yeah I think some different examples
I’ve seen of training sessions as well
if you're helping people learn to search
databases you can use examples that
speak to
different aspects whether they're things
to do with race
or things to do with issues like um
domestic violence and that kind of thing
and so just even from including those
examples when you're saying
people it's just starting to broaden out
the thinking a little bit more
um the other one
um I was thinking of is about sharing
good practice from elsewhere
like maybe your boss doesn't want to do
it but there's nothing to stop you
talking about
what everyone else is doing or what
someone else is doing
and you know if it gets talked about
enough um
there will be um there will be that
pressure to do something
yeah and also I mean particularly for
the nhs
there's an aspect of um accountability
as well so
you know you've got the workforce race
equality standard
um which which are the measures that um
that you know are applied nationally
across the service in terms of measuring
uh race disparity in the nhs and
um that's not so there are kind of
things that the nhs is required to do
standards that they require to meet
and so is there any way that you can
kind of train your argument
in terms of like this link to a
strategic priority
it might lead to a strategic equality in
the nhs so you might link it to race
data this is particularly personal when
you're thinking about
on workforce like when you're thinking
about the makeup of your team
um how people progress how you support
career
progression because the nhs is actually
quite diverse but as you
as you travel up that diversity doesn't
translate in terms of race
um and you know there are also kind of
strategic priorities that your
organization will have that your trust
will have
your trust will have I’m I’m pretty sure
that all nhs trusts will have like
some sort of EDI strategic objectives
um and what what are those how can you
kind of link it into those
like you need to think about all of
those things to kind of help make the
business case
almost um you kind of have to treat
everything like it's a business case
because the moral code alone sometimes
won't win the day so sometimes you have
to
you have to put your librarian and do a
bit of research and say here's the data
this is why we should do it so
um there's lots of data out there for
example about why um
not diversifying your workforce will
result in um you know
less a less rich pool of talent and then
that has an economic impact on your
organization
you need to kind of yeah put your
research hat on
and and find what the what the kind of
data is and what the argument is
to do this kind of thing whatever the
change is
another one I was going to suggest is um
about
if you just have an ethnic minority or a
black staff network
it might be useful to link in with them
because as Hong-Anh says
there's strategic priorities around
these issues you know if you're chair of
your
same network is saying where's the edi
stuff in the library
that's going to perhaps carry a bit more
weight then and you sending it to
your boss maybe yeah that's a really
good shout out
definitely yeah find yours what is your
um peers in your organization find your
supporters
like you're trying to do things that
you're just more distant
you're not the only one who's trying to
make this change so you need to try and
find the other people and join up
um and be strategic about it yeah
so if for example you want to kind of
diversify your collection
um but you know there are budget
constraints and there's a bit of
resistance
about it can you argue that it's good
for self well-being can you argue that
it links into kind of
like greater thinking around health
inequalities and how that interacts with
race inequality
and that's actually quite an important
dimension to speak about because
at a health policy level that's
something that people are starting to
think about you know
you need to kind of cast your net
quite broadly
that's great I think that's that's a lot
of practical
steps that people can take to start
thinking about how they
affect that positive change upwards
um I don't think we've got anything
that's come from on the chat on that
topic so she'll move on to our next
question
yeah yeah
so and this has been a big one we had
lots of um discussion about this on on
slido what does it mean to decolonize a
library in a healthcare
context okay
so um decolonization
as I understand it is about sort of um
changing the focus from
um things that have been largely built
and designed around
cisgender white specific male
white people and making things
yeah more diverse so in
our health care library I think there's
lots of ways that we can do it
um we can talk about collections but
we've also talked about the training
aspects as well uh raising awareness
to those kind of examples um
and yeah the um things that we've got
over about the
lack of diversity of images and stuff
that's really topical at the moment I
don't know people have seen on twitter
there is a student at saint george's
uh university who has um
written a book about recognizing
clinical signs in black and brown skin
he's done it as part of a student
project he's a medical student
and this is being hailed as a big thing
because
it's a first over
and that's kind of incredible when you
think about it but
this should be down to the unpaid labour
of a
medical student to reduce this kind of
resource
but these are the kind of things that
we're thinking of um
these pictures these resources should be
more available
and when we say decolonized we're not
just talking about the race agenda we're
talking about um
gender we're talking about um lgbtq+
issues as well
and um which have a knock-on effect in
health
and health outcomes so it's really
thinking wisely
uh interrogating our collections what
voices are being heard
what voices aren't being heard and
in the collections and in the terms that
we use as Hong-Anh said earlier the index
terms that we use as well
yeah I think the example that you use of
the um
uh the medical students who've put
together this resource I mean
uh that absolutely shouldn't be
something that someone has taken on as
unpaid labour
um and I guess my my challenge to us as
the profession is as a profession we
have significant economic power um when
it comes to publishers for example what
could we do to affect change
as a whole profession of health care
librarians when we're thinking about
um what what's missing um
so we know that in dermatology yeah like
there are
there are no uh there's no diversity
in how skin conditions show up on
different colour skins because they do
present differently
um a really pertinent example of this at
the moment is um in Covid actually
so one of the symptoms of clothing is a
rash
about 20% of covid patients present with
this
um but all the exams like the majority
of the examples
uh photographic examples we have of how this rash looks is on white skin
and there are very little examples
photographic examples of how this looks
on
Asian skin on Black skin um and so it
looks different and this might be a
crucial thing that is being missed
in a certain section of population and
we already know that
outcomes and covid for um particular
ethnic groups
is very different um than it is in white
groups so
um actually the um the cover tracking
app that
um is uh developed by zoe is the one
that's been used quite a lot in the uk
at the moment I’m sure
a lot of people on this call um can
say they're every day on it
and they put out a call for people to um
send in pictures if
if they had experienced the rash and um
you know
uh weren't from um a caucasian
background
um and so we could have examples of that
so
um so yeah it has kind of real world
consequences this kind of stuff
um and what Natasha said as well about
it applying to kind of other
characteristics as well so
for anyone who's read like the Caroline
Criado-Perez Invisible Women
there's quite a lot there about how um
medical research has historically
erased women from a lot of trials
um and consequently our understanding
our medical model of understanding some
conditions is based on how it presents
in men for example so
um so again it's about that kind of real
world consequence so I think
for us as um
as healthcare librarians as information
professionals we need to
get ahead of a curve right we need to
understand where the gaps in our
knowledge are
and be conscious of that and think think
about that bear that in mind when we
carry out literature searches when we
think about our collections
and you know that's on our speed
that's great thank you we've actually
had some a really good question
um um Shakira has uh shared the
information on the mind the gap book
that you were talking about from
Saint George's if you were interested in
that
we can add that link into our resources
list actually can't we
yeah lovely thank you that would be
great so
um Camilla has asked uh when we do
literature searches on eg dermatological
conditions and darker skin
sometimes it seems that there is very
little research or no research
is there an organization or somewhere we
can report these research gaps to
somewhere that is able to pass on the
message that most research is needed on
x y and z, wow that's, if
there is a place yes great question we
we should try and find out I wonder if
they're in
yeah I wonder if nihr is a good place
to report that so that's the national
institute for health research they're
the main funding body
for nhs research and they give out grants
for research conducted in the nhs
and I think one of their remits is to
try and correct like gaps in the
knowledge
in the evidence so um that might be one
that comes to mind but that's definitely
something we should go away and look at
and we might add that to the reading
list
I’m wondering if if if some of these
like some more
say like Runnymede Trust or whatever
might have some ideas as well
yeah some other like that it's a think
tank isn't it so um
yeah yeah yeah that's a really good
question
with action to take away yeah and they’re
really well placed to kind of spot that
kind of thing and report it
sorry just flicking back and forth
through the chat and I’m using myself
there's been another um uh suggestion
here from Suzanne Wilson she says the
James Lind alliance
and she's put the link in which we will
add to our resources pack thank you
susanne that's really
okay should we move on to our next
question
so how can libraries promote their edi
collections and encourage engagement
with this topic through the resources
that they provide
so this is a great question um
and I think you know um
I don't think it's a case of doing
anything extra
over and above what you already do in
your services
and in the services that you provide
it's about rethinking all of those
activities you do
with a different lens thinking about it
through the edi
the edi lens um and so like Natasha's
already given a great example of this
in terms of like things about training
um
you know like could you if you host a
journal club for example
um could you use that journal club model
and
use it to host discussions around
diversity where you
um you could use not only like
clinical uh like clinical research but
you could use maybe like um
a think piece that is about an aspect of
uh diversity and inclusion that you
think it's really useful to have a
conversation about
um and so you give people that reading
and then it's up to you you have the
physical space and you can kind of host
the space to have that discussion
because
uh one that kind of provides
lifelong learning continuous learning
opportunities which is
you know that's our jam that's what we
do um
and it's it's continuing to engage um
people with your servers who may maybe
they don't need to use the library
in their day-to-day job but this is like
again proving that
this the service library can be relevant
to their professional development
in a different way
yep yes I really like that um that
lifelong learning idea and I think that
some of the questions
specifically about black history month
and stuff I think sometimes we sort of
think oh you know
Black History Month or five months is it
really relevant to what we're doing well
actually
I think these are things that many of us
need to learn more about and it will
benefit us not just in our work but in
our
home lives as well so I think it's a
really good opportunity to
have those conversations and also you
know
it can be fun as well it doesn't have to
be really serious you know
the one about activity ideas for Black
History Month well yeah you could get
people to read that you could also get
people to watch a film
you know a podcast uh that kind of thing
um and have a
comedy sketch even and have a discussion
about it so
um yeah yeah yeah and that's a great
point about like yeah it doesn't
it doesn't have to be po faced so um
we had pride week at the fund recently
and one thing we did was
to host a quiz um but the quiz was an
educational quiz so
all the questions were centered around
um lgbt history
um so it was educational as well as
being a social activity
one of the questions about encouraging
engagement and encouraging people to
join in one of the phrases that our
ethnic minority network
uses is um remember opening events out
to everybody
we did this yesterday um they said we
would like attendance to reflect the
makeup
of the organization so we want sixty
percent white staff forty percent
BAME and they pretty much got it
um pretty much the stats debate they
were doing a slider on it um
yeah so I think I think sometimes
people think things aren't for them so
you have to and that's something we're
doing in the recruitment isn't it you
know making it obvious we want
applications from underrepresented
groups
we're saying for these kind of
activities as well
yeah yeah and I think that's that's a
really good point Natasha is that um
often like edi stuff can kind of
attract a certain crowd and it can
either attract people who
you know um they're attracted to it
because it reflects
their lived experience and so you know
if they people want to get involved
because
it is really about directly influencing
change to make
their own experience of the workplace
better um
or it can be people who are kind of um
you know really allied to the cause and
quite active and
um already quite active uh in that space
um and I think for people who are newer
to the conversation it can feel
um it can feel scary to join that
and when there's there might be a gap in
where they are on their journey and
where other people are on their journey
and
you know often people don't want to get
involved in stuff like this because
they're scared of saying the wrong thing
or they're scared that it's not a space
for them so being really explicit about
what we expect
is really important and saying you know
we expect everyone to get involved in
this because this is a problem
not only for um black and brown people to solve
it's a problem for everyone to solve
I think that fits in really well to
another question we have that is on
the slide around
um being an ally so somebody had
recently taken part in ally training
provided by the trust lgbtq plus network
and they wondered what your thoughts
were on staff becoming an ally
oh that's really um that's really timely
question because we um the call I was
talking about just now was brought out of the lgbt+ network and allies
and um I think it can be
really powerful um as long as we're
clear on what the ask is and one of
the slides we had on the call
yesterday was
what an ally is not what you mustn’t do and
then they were giving and then there was
another slightly different thing to do
um and and I’ve heard this from our
lgbtq
network um when they launched their
allies scheme they gave everybody this
nice little badge
and they've sort of thrown there a few
months long it's not just about the
badge we actually need people to
do stuff so one good thing on our call
yesterday if we had all our senior
integrated care directors
and our chief executives even making
pledges about things that they are going
to do
to demonstrate that allyship and so
they're going to be held accountable
by the network by the organization for
the things they said on the
or on the call yesterday um one thing
we haven't got on the reading list that
we should add um
Yvonne Coghill um who was
with the red team I’m not sure if she
still is but she's still obviously
operating this area she just did a seven
days of allyship
slide thing that's been going around on
twitter that was really good it's just
on one page
um we should add that to the reading
list
yeah actions yeah yeah and I think you
know
um I think the key for the key thing for
me in terms of allyship is that you need
to be active
at my ship um allyship to kind of signal
that
you're for the cause is great but we
need to go one further
we we need we need white people to step
up
and actually help us push this boulder
up the hill because
um if it's only people from an ethnic
minority background pushing that boulder
up the hill then
you know if you think about it you're
perpetuating the same problem it's
it's unpaid labour it's work on an
underrepresented group to fix the
problems that have been
created by a dominant group so um
allyship can look like a lot of
different things yeah it can look like
personal commitment
it can look like um
you know being the person to take on the
difficult conversation
so that your colleague from an ethnic
minority background doesn't have to
if someone has said something in a
meeting that you know doesn't sit well
with you
maybe maybe that's like a really great
thing you can do is to kind of
call that out um so that it's it's less
of a fraught conversation for the person
who
has the least power in that situation um
yeah so it's just about thinking about
what you can do
um one of the questions on the slide
uh is about you know are they good
examples of um
trust implementing training where people
can feel the lived experiences of stuff
I say another kind of really important
thing you can do as an ally is
to not rely on people
having to kind of mine some of their
traumatic experiences so that you can
learn
there's a lot out there already um you
know there are people there are talented
authors podcasters
screenwriters actors who have all kind
of
um created stuff that help you
understand what that lived experience is
like
um it's a tough ask to ask your
colleagues
to share that because it can be risky
you know like
if um if you experience the workplace in
a different way and then you're being
asked to kind of
disclose how different that is and how
bad that is for you
that's a really tough place to be put in
um and just to say yeah one thing that
um
I’ve added to the reading list is that
the King’s Trust have recently
published a piece of research which
includes some
data of that ilk that is anonymized so
that helps give you a flavour but there
is
plenty out there that's written on this
and specifically in the nhs context as
well
just a couple of things out there Hong-Anh
yeah we shouldn't be asking our
colleagues to
to relive their horrible experiences but
if you're going to pay somebody who does
this for a living to
you know facilitate those conversations
or just um
uh interpret that for you then there are
several good people out there who can
have those conversations
and and take that um because they're
paid to do it
rather than your staff having to do it
the other one is um
I just recently came across and it's on
the reading list um this thing called
hexitime I don't know if people have
seen it
it's uh like a time banking thing and
they have running a campaign about
supporting BAME colleagues because
several of my um several of my white
mostly male colleagues have signed up
for that this week
that offered to do things like interview
coaching um and mentoring
for um more junior um
new qualified allied health
professionals for example so
that might be something you think you
that you could do and I'll also be
outside your work as well
you know um actually um I’m so nobody
can stop you from doing it if you want
to offer a mentor
or give interview and practice for
somebody
thank you I think um I think you've kind
of gone into some of these
examples that this next question has
asked but um
Richard has said what does it
mean to help as an old white middle
class guy I’m aware
I don't want to patronize or mansplain
to people what concrete things can I do
I think the fact that you know the word
mansplain means that you're probably
you're on the right lines there
I that I always appreciate when my older
white colleagues do that is um when they
say my name when I’m not there
or when they reference work that I’ve
done when I will bring me into a
conversation about something I can help
with
that there's people you can do that for
yeah um like I said before you can be
the person to have a difficult
conversation too
so harking back to one of the earlier
questions about resistance
if um people are trying to make change
um about something chances are that um
as a white
white man people might listen to you
more than they do to other people
um than they do to a woman of colour so
um
you know you're you're you can utilize
your privilege for good
thanks that was great okay so
this is a big topic as well actually it
came up what should library collections
relating to
equality diversity and inclusion or BAME
groups be called what language would be
most appropriate and least offensive
so we've put some stuff on the reading
list about the different terms haven't
we Hong-Anh because there's
there's a lot to unpick with them
yeah there is um we've actually been
having this conversation quite a lot
at fund recently um
partially I think because we've realized
that
one of the reasons why we what the
consequence of us
having historically not done that much
work about it is that we don't have the
confidence to talk about it because we
feel like we don't have the language and
language is so often a barrier in terms
of people trying to get involved in this
because
people don't want to offend um
so like I think the key thing here is
that there is
this is not going to be very helpful but
there is no right or wrong
so I’m fine with the term BAME being
used
other people aren't I’m okay with it
being used in certain contexts
so I think it's I think where you use
terms you have to use them meaningfully
and
ensure that you've put some thought into
it so
BAME is okay if what you mean is
actually
Black Asian and Ethnic Minority bame is
not okay if you are only referring to a
few of those groups for example
um I I think
language is loaded and it just means
that um
it means something different to everyone
else so
I think as long as you make the decision
and you've done your research
research and you're able to say why
you've made that decision
that is that is the best approach to
this
so an example is um at the fund we uh
used
capital b for Black and we had a
discussion about what that why that
is and um because you know Black is not
it's not an ethnicity but there is um
a political dimension to it in terms of
it's
you know it's a social construct um that
is recognized so
it is used with capital b but
there's also discussion about whether
you should also capitalise the w
in white um and the capital w and white
is sometimes associated with
white supremacy but then also if you
don't capitalize it then
it plays into that whole thing of like
uh white people not recognizing that
they are also holders of race
races not only held by people who aren't
white
so it's really complex and messy but
just do your research and and figure out
where you fall
on it and why you've made those
decisions so that if you get called out
on it if people want to know why you've
made that decision you can have a
meaningful conversation about it
thank you I don't know Natasha do you
have anything to add to that
no I suppose I might just say something
about um
a question saying about collections
related to edI or BAME groups and i
think I like the idea more of having an
edi
collection because you know we're
thinking about this holistically
everything about all
trying to think about all the detective
characteristics
and it would be nice to make sure you
have stuff covering all of those
different label groups as well and i
don't know maybe it depends on how big
your collection is maybe
I don't think i'd have enough to have
separate reading this drawer
okay so maybe you've gone
I think that's a really good point as
well because it takes into that idea of
intersectionality as well so you know
we should be thinking about all the
characteristics and all these different
characteristics don't sit in silos
um you know so um it's really important
to yeah
think about it holistically
fab right we have some chats going on
um and some of these relate a bit back
to some of the previous questions so i'm
just going to go through them
um as they've cropped up okay
so William has asked would you like
diversity engagement
assessed by health education for example
as part of the quality
impact outcome framework assessment
do we are we thinking about equality and
diversity of library knowledge services
as part of the new
is that what we're saying I think so
yeah
being specified whether it's workforce
or library
services stuff but um I suppose either
or both
well I think we we are in the refresh of
the knowledge for healthcare
you've got diversity is much more
explicit in there
in the um driver diagrams and things
um i
oh I’m not sure I’m not sure I have a
library with my library manager hat on i
think the quality improvement outcomes
is
big enough and the other thing is like
Hong-Anh talks saying you know we
shouldn't be doing any new stuff
this stuff should become mainstream and
should be part of um you know
the way that we make sure that our
collections are are comprehensive and
addressing all the relevant issues for
our
organizations yeah
no I don't think so I I think it
depends
so I I think I think it depends on
how we want to encourage libraries to
pay attention to this
so one way to do it is through that
means I don't work in an nhs library so
I have no idea of
um what it means to kind of do the the
quality framework assessment
and what that might add if we we add
that in it but
I think there are other ways to try and
encourage
um people like libraries to pay
attention to edi
in their services it doesn't just have
to be through this
and if we if it was included it
shouldn't be only through that either
yeah I I think I agree with you and I
attended some training yesterday
actually on um the legalities of
equality diversity and human rights and
and they made a really interesting
point that we can be using our equality
impact assessments
on um things like developing new
teaching programs
to ensure that we're checking that
everything is inclusive
we've explored all options when we're
doing those things so that might be
something to think about
for us as well
okay back to the chat there's lots of
things going on
um so Shakira has said how to navigate
these conversations with colleagues
as a black woman I almost anticipate
ignorant comments and don't feel it is
my duty to emotionally drain myself
should just I be more involved um
no I think you need to be the priority I
think is you need to look after yourself
if you don't feel you can do it in the
moment or ever then then I don't think
it's for you to take it on
I I don't think um I
I’m talking to some older colleagues
the group I I was having a
conversation with the
I don't think she's on the call today
but she was sort of saying you know we
were doing this work 20 years ago
in libraries then it kind of dropped off
and I come back and she's like I just
want to get on with my job
um and so I think it's for those who
have the energy right now me and hang
out and got a bit of energy right now
to do this work and then you know maybe
we'll step back and some other people
will take it up in a couple of years um
I'm
sorry you have to anticipate those
comments and it's just it's just
draining because
I think speaking for myself I don't want
to be talking about this I just like to
get on with my life
and just be me but
you know we can't get away from it and
uh yeah
yeah I would totally agree it's
yeah you need to make the best decision
for you
and um if you if you don't want to
engage in those conversations
don't it's if if the emotional burden of
it is too much
if it takes away from you progressing in
your career
using time for your own career
progression for other things in your
life that are valuable
no don't do it um you know like I think
I I saw a tweet the other day which was
about kind of um
imagine all like the great black writers
if if they if racism
didn't exist
what would their work be about but as it
is they had to devote their intellectual
energy
to writing about this stuff you do not
have to devote your energy to that
um if you want to then that's great but
as we've said before the push is not for
um it's for everyone to pick up this
baton
um and no one can do this work
indefinitely
and yeah I like Natasha like this is not
this is not necessarily what I want to
be spending my time on but
here we are
[Laughter]
um what I will say is that
uh it's not like I don't get anything
from this work so it's been really
developmental for me being involved in
this work it's really helped me to build
um skills and stuff that maybe i
wouldn't have gotten the chance to
at this point in my career in a library
role
so my ability to kind of
um influence upwards has really been
honed
by um being involved in edI work um in
thinking kind of really strategically
for example I probably wouldn't be able
to do that unless I’ve got
up to the next rung of the ladder in my
career so
there are benefits but it's up to you to
decide
what the trade-off is between like your
emotional
mental health because it is draining and
um
whether you want to kind of progress
your career in that way and through this
channel
yeah so i'll just come in again they're
hanging just to echo about what you're
saying the work what I'm
starting to do now with the ethnic
minority network being a strategic
ambassador means you know I’m in contact
with all these much senior
members of staff one there that keeps
from and really enjoying getting to know
them as well
and the other thing we're talking about
careers is that it's only in the last
couple of years I’ve started talking
about these issues and that's because
I’ve
been around for a long time now um I’ve
been at that stage in my career where i
feel comfortable having a talk about
these issues
when I was first qualified in my first
job I wouldn't
have wanted to go there and I it might
have been unwise to have gone there
whereas now I’m not that I’m untouchable
but it's just a bit more
it's just a perhaps a bit more with age
as well at ease with myself I guess
um the other thing I was saying you're
saying about what you get out of it
um I’ve told you to Hong-Anh before is
that I do feel
when I do this work it's one of the ways
I like that I honour the ancestors
and really just be thankful for the fact
that you know
people who went through hideous time you
know I’m here and I'm
able to feel bits to try and make things
better for those who are coming after us
I do get something out of it yeah
thank you thank you Shakira for the
question I think that's really powerful
and
certainly personally that makes me feel
like I should be paying more attention
to pick up when those things are
happening so I can step in for my
colleagues
and that's definitely on my action list
from now on
and Shakira has said thank you as well
she says thanks for your responses I'm
sure many um people of colour in
libraries are outnumbered so it can be
a daunting task absolutely yeah
yeah okay um just
quickly we've had some great uh links
from -- on
um writing styles so we will link those
as well
because it says we're absolutely
committed in knowledge for healthcare to
build growth and develop a diverse and
inclusive library knowledge services
workforce
um but then William does mention and
this is absolutely true
I guess diversity isn't once in the
quality impact outcome framework so
perhaps even if it isn't assessed it
should be mentioned
I think that's a really important point
I will take back to my colleagues thank
you William
um so
what we're going to do now is I’m going
to unmute you
all so if you can just muted
yourself so we're not
suddenly inundated with background
information and then you can ask
questions if you want to using the hand
up function
okay here we go
you can just mute yourself please
anybody want to ask a question please
put your hands up
I don't see any hands coming up just yet
you can also still use the chat if you
want to to ask questions
or make comments about the things that
we've been discussing today
otherwise let me just scroll down a
little I’ve got
hand, Bertha I’m just going to come to
you I’m going to unmute you
so please ask your question hi uh well
rather instead of
a question I just wanted to share things
that we have been doing here at
MSC at Southend
so um I started this job in February
2019
and when I first started one of the
first things was to get involved with
different groups
just to attend to the meetings um i
attended to the faith group
and I attended to the BAME group so when
I attended to the BAME group i
found out that there was so much work
that we could contribute
and from then um we started this
diversity collection
here and more recently we started this
inclusion and diversity bulletin
which has been well received so I think
for me
just sharing my experience is um we need
to be curious
what what's going on what's around there
um you know as librarians we think of
doctors and nurses but there is
managers their managers their uh
porters there is so much going on and we
are not curious to find out what are
their life and how we can serve them
then if it's all all these things going
uh hanging around
so I don't feel myself I
am um I am not BAME
but if you see my face and if you hear
my
voice then you know that I’m not a white
british
but where I come from I’m a white
privileged person I’m from mexico
and in that context is how I learn about
my privilege
and I still hold this privilege here
because at some point I just shut down
but I noticed that if I shut down then i
don't learn
and yeah so this is what I wanted to
share with you
that's wonderful thank you and I think
your point about curiosity is so
important
um it's a really important trait
for our profession in general but yeah
especially for this
it's about being curious about how other
people's lives
are different from yours other people
have different viewpoints obviously with
different experiences
um they're not all necessarily bad but
they are different
um and just having that understanding um
to broaden your worldview is so
important for this
yeah thanks Bertha I did actually mean I
don't know if we did put it on the
reading list we were going to flag up
your
um bulletin if that's okay um but that's
a result that people might want to
read for themselves or to um uh forward
just to subscribe and forward to other
colleagues in their organization and
that will do once more share things
thank you okay I’ve got a question this
is a good question from the chat
and from an anonymous person our manager
is very concerned about us doing
anything which seems
political um do you have any suggestions
for helping to affirm that this is not
politics but essential work for the
library
oh tricky because I think it is
political isn't it I think the nh
the nhs is inherently political
unfortunately
uh that's not helpful though for the
question and
can we bring it back to thinking about
like we said earlier on about the health
inequalities about the social
determinants that kind of
aspect um how it ties into prevention
and these kind of things I mean I think
yeah
libraries aren't neutral and I think you
know if you don't
you don't take a stance you know you're
on the side of the oppressors
you know you you I think people should
be taking a start with pro
pro equality um and pro-social justice
and I
appreciate that it's hard to articulate
managers
yeah so um I think it depends on how
comfortable you feel with having
a one-to-one conversation with this
manager but um
I don't think they mean political I
think that's a coded word
I think that what I’m really saying is i
don't really feel comfortable with this
or I don't really get what this is about
um
one of the most important things in this
work is to utilize your personal
relationships
because um you know
there is so much fear and uncertainty
that people hold around this work
so actually using your personal
relationship having those one-to-one
chats
they can become a really safe space to
help people to understand
um things that maybe they don't have
space to talk about
elsewhere so yeah I think if you can
feel comfortable to have that
conversation and
say to them you know what do you mean by
political um
why is that necessarily bad why is it
out of our remit
this is the way I see it see what
happens out of that conversation
because yeah I I don't think they mean political
[Laughter]
thank you that is that is tough um
and it's something and I think um
you just have to keep talking about it
yeah yeah um so Bertha said we can
share the bulletin which is great we
will definitely do that
I’m going to come to Trisha now and just
unmute you because she's got her hand up
um let me just do some scrolling
so Trisha
holly my doorbell's going I’m sorry i'll
be back in a sec
no worries um
I’m just uh wondering
how far we should be also including
other people the underserved
so there are white
sections of society who are
discriminated against because of where
they live
or how they speak and also
I just make the point we need to be
quite careful about the language we use
you know people still use um
quite a lot of
unacceptable language say like
chav or something like that and
people use it
without even thinking about it and I was
just having a discussion with somebody
today at work about
this aspect of it
yeah yeah I think that's a really good
point uh I'll just recap for
Natasha who's just come back as Tricia
had a point about you know thinking
about um
other underrepresented groups so
thinking about kind of um
you know uh groups that socioeconomic
disadvantage for example
um yeah um I I think this is why
it's important to take an intersectional
approach to this this is
there's an order of uh lord quote that i
love which is um
around you know um we don't live
single issue lives um and
intersectionality is about that you know
um if we take up the cause of race
equality then we're also taking up the
cause
of um of lgbt equality too of gender
equality of um
classism um ableism you know all those
things are intertwined
all oppression is connected so um
our approach to that should also be
connected to holistic so yeah absolutely
that's
that's uh that's essential for us to
think about as well
but also all fashion is connected but
they're all
also distinct that they all need
slightly different approaches to
everyone experiences slightly different
challenges as well
thank you got a few more things coming
up on the chat
um so uh in related to
the um the previous question about
um managers who think this is too
political
um Helen has said uh that her trust is
very anxious to take this on and at
every meeting and at every level we're
being asked to
consider Black Lives Matter I think it's
less politically risky than it used to
be
so maybe it goes back to that point you
mentioned uh right at the beginning Hong-Anh
about or was it Natasha sorry about
finding case studies from other
organizations of what they're doing and
why it's been so um
uh good for their service
yeah you don't have to reinvent the
wheel there's
lots of great practice going on out
there
and and uh um a a suggestion rather than
a uh question um
saying she's currently reading an
excellent book she's learned a lot and
she's only a few chapters in called why
I’m not talking to white people about
race by Reni Eddo-Lodge
which I think is on
your reading list is it not I believe
it's on the reading list yeah
yeah it is yeah we've got uh we've got
that on our reading list and also a
couple of others as well which
are kind of if if you're interested in
kind of continuing your reading journey
around that
and there's more stuff like that on
there
okay I can't see any more hands up
apologies if I’ve missed you um and it
is three o'clock now
and there aren't any more questions on
the chat
so I think we will wrap this up if
that's okay unless either of you want
any more um comments before we go
no I just thank everyone for joining in
and engaging with us on this it's um
it's
been a good way to spend a Friday
afternoon
yeah I agree thank you for um hosting
this chat
and also for everyone who's come along
and contributed
um and yeah if you have any other
questions
um you know we'll please do get in touch
with us
um we'd be more than happy to have a
chat or answer any other questions
yeah definitely so we have been
discussing this and we think that this
is probably the beginning of this
uh sort of learning webinar discussion
piece um
where we will talk about uh how health
libraries should
respond to other people perhaps within
the protected characteristics so
that would be interesting we'd be really
interested to hear from you
um and we will be publishing this
webinar as a recording
and its transcript our list of resources
which we've been talking about all
session
um a blog post about it as well in the
next few weeks so please keep an eye out
for that
and the other thing I'd really
appreciate is if when you receive your
evaluation form please fill it in
there'll be a section there for you to
make a pledge I think we've all have
some actions to take away from today
about the things that we can do going
forward
and so it'd be great to see some of
those from you and
um Natasha and Hong-Anh thank you so much for
taking the time out today to ask those
quests to answer those questions
and and to just give us um just a much
needed space
to have this discussion oh thanks for
having us
yeah thank you for expertly hosting as
well holly all right so we'll just uh leave that
there thank you everyone and happy
friday
thanks everyone bye
Webinar – recorded on 17 July 2020. Hosted by Natasha Howard and Hong-Anh Nguyen who describe and discuss the main issues and how KLS staff can take action.
These reading lists cover a wide range of media (articles, books, podcasts) on broad themes on the topic of diversity in libraries.
Reading lists
Page last reviewed: 15 June 2021